Born Bad?
71The other night, someone I barely knew said something that got me thinking real hard. There was music, laughter and the aroma of food all around and the mood was joyous to say the least. It was a big fat Indian wedding and next to me was a man who had been the head of one of the largest heavy engineering corporations in the country. He retired many years ago and the talk turned from cricket – almost every Indian’s passion – to the corruption in high places in the country – something we just live with day in, day out. That’s when he suddenly came out with this pronouncement.
“We’re all born bad.”
Come on, I thought, though I didn’t say it. Don’t you know that we come into this world innocent and sweet, trailing clouds of glory?
He paused and went on.
“We grow to become good or not.”
What he said played on my mind for a long time. Memories of Sunday morning sermons from long ago came back to haunt me. The preacher’s thundering voice telling us with authority to repent because we were sinners and were all born in sin. It always upset me because at home, we always thought of God as a god of love. What was the truth, if there was one? Did it lie somewhere in between?
So what is the nature of the natural man? The man that is or was before the masks get fitted into place? What are our natural instincts before our parents and our teachers make us aware of what we should do and how we ought to behave, what we must say and when we can say it.
Look at kids playing and you usually find the ones who are stronger bossing the others. If they aren’t checked, they usually bully the weaker ones. Is this the way it happens in Nature – the natural way? I would hate to label it as ‘bad’ but the fact is, most of us who have read ‘Lord of the Flies’ will agree that children can be cruel when they are unsupervised.
I read a wonderful hub the other day about people being essentially good and after this, I couldn’t help wondering if we need to grow into goodness. If we are born, not with a tabula rasa but with ‘natural’ survival instincts and it’s guidance, teaching and experience that makes us what we are.
Or, is there a bad and good at all? Or just a natural state of being and a socially acceptable state? Who defines what’s good, bad or otherwise? Are we constantly torn inside because of what we are naturally and what we are told we should be? Is nothing in the world really good or bad and just our thinking that makes it so?
Questions, questions, but will there ever be answers that are conclusive?
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Hi Green Lotus - thanks for reading. I'm sure your hub will be awesome! Innocent or bad - rather a tough one to answer, no?
We are born curious more than anything and when the curious light is abandoned then things can go wrong...thats an over simplistic view,but I think it has some relevence?;)
Shalini, good and bad is a question of values, and different values help one survive under different conditions. If being aggressive is bad, then, yes, some are born worse than others, because they are more prone to aggression. But if you value bravery over passivity, then those same people are born with more "good" in them.
Yikes!!! This reminds me of an old song entitled..¨There are more questions than answers¨
I guess we must be born with certain family traits in us, but then a lot depends on how, where we are raised, and eventually the choices we make.... Maybe?
A very thought provoking hub! If one looks at the animal kingdom then unlike animals that are born with the natural instinct to survive and fend for themselves at a very young age, humans are so dependant and helpless for such a long period of time. As parents we all differ from what is acceptable behavior and our children are taught what is good or bad based on that particular family's values. Yet, two siblings can at a very young age differ in what they choose to learn about being "good" or "bad". I suppose what I am trying to say is that children are probably born neither good nor bad its a combination of the choices they make or the parents fail to make that eventually influence them to be "good" or "bad".
Thanks for the interesting topic!
Shalini: I read the "Lord of the Flies" when I was a teenager and remember thinking of how cruel those children were! As for the question, are we born "good" or "bad".... hmmmmm... I think we are born with unique predispositions for our soul experience, and what to our human perception is judged as "bad", may be perfect in the bigger picture. These are of course philosophical thoughts, so, if I were to be asked to give only a yes or no answer, I would say then, no we are not born good or bad, we are just born.
Rated up!
Hello Shalini. For many years I dealt with this questions I often was asked. Being "good behavior" is matter of education. But we were born in genetic problem call "sin". That produced death, sickness and poverty and we all have evidence of it. There is no medical explanation for example why person dies.
Thanks for this Hub.
Great question Shalini. I believe we're born neutral, not innocent or bad. There are influences working from the time we take our first breath... DNA, Karma, Zodiac, Reincarnation, Original Sin and the natural human survival instinct. As we grow, and encounter all of the external influences (family, friends, life experiences), we develop our persona. Being good or bad is a personal choice. The human mind is as powerful or diabolical as we let it be. Really made me think? Great Hub, Ciao!
Outstanding Hub as usual Shalini and one that makes you think. You are right that children can be exceedingly cruel which makes me think that Darwin's theory of Natural Selection applies as much to humans as to other species. So we are born not "good" or "bad" or "innocent", just with the instinct to survive. Thank you for making us think.
My feeling is we are born totally Innocent and what we learn is what is protrade in the Love from our parents. If they had a hard time they protrade that..but LOVE conquers all. and it comes from the heart..as a Mother I Love my children without judgement...mistakes are alwAYS made as we grow, but if taught that God is who we answer to, and who we must truly rely on...it all works out.."Patience is a virtue"...following the Ten Commandments is the true answer...:O) Hugs and a wonderful hub...G-Ma
Hi MA - curious, I agree. However, we can be nice or not so nice in the pursuit of curiosity sometimes, I think?
Hi Aya - yes, values can be relative but there are some traits that that everyone agrees are bad or maybe 'not good' - and very often, children do display these traits when they are not checked - even when they could have looked like cherubic angels a few minutes ago!
Hi Dim - yes, in most cases - however, the black sheep syndrome sometimes defies this generality, doesn't it?
Hi Laura - yes, human babies are indeed dependent for the longest time - is this so that they can learn for longer you think?
Hi Marie - yes, predispositions, whatever the cause, could just be the explanation and, like you say, maybe we're just born, nothing more, nothing less.
Hi Vladimir - yes, I was brought up with the belief of sin being the cause of all the problems we face and maybe it is in our genetic make-up - but that makes it tragic, doesn't it? But then, maybe we need the darkness to seek the light!
Hi Jai - neutral sounds so much better than bad - and yes, there could just be so many factors at play. "...as we let it to be" - therein lies the crux of what we are, I think!
Hi Sabu - yes, the instinct to survive - but, as children, do we sometimes take the less acceptable path when this instinct surfaces? Till we are taught otherwise, of course.
Hi Merle - yes, love and guidance is the answer to growing into goodness - thanks for reminding us :)
Thanks all for reading.
Hi Shalini, your hub reminds me of two nuggets of wisdom passed on to me by my siblings who both had children before me. Firstly my sister told me that all childen are born as 'little savages' and it's our job to civilise them, and secondly, my brother warned that children never notice all the things you do for them until you stop!
The nature/nurture debate is a very simplistic way of looking at a complex subject, but broadly speaking, children who are brought up by well-behaved parents will mostly become better-behaved adults than those who learn to disrespect and abuse others from the cradle onwards. Our first instincts are not to be bad, but merely to survive and that's what makes us naturally attention-seeking, competitive and greedy as infants. We still need those traits as adults, but society demands that we modify them into something more acceptable!
NO WAY!!! Babies can't be born bad. Look at them. They are as sweet and innocent as you can get them. Later on they turn good or bad. Sometimes without reason and sometimes because they get into the wrong way or company.
Hi Shal, I suppose we ARE all born bad, because, if we are let loose from birth, unguided, I guess we would have a natural tendancy to go around doing things that are beneficial to US only. In the process we will grow up to perform actions that could be view as selfish, uncouth, unjust ...
Fittingly the "tabula rasa" concept is not accepted by those who believe in re-birth. They believe that we all bring along our "baggage" from previous existances.
Cheers! :)
We are not born bad. There are good and bad in every human. We are the only creatures given the power of choice. What we do with our choices will ultimately mould you in the ultimate you. Unfortunately the environment we lived in is not a perfect human friendly place. This is the challenge.
It goes like a two edged sword. Like in some of the comments, stating that some children do not have the opportunity to get the best guidance from their parents nor the environment.
Difficult topic to discuss in a few short centenses. Definitely one for a long debate.
I think V are ALL born 'curious'..some people like me 'xtremely curious' :) Wonderful Hub Shalini!
It also bought 'india' bk to me again!
A curious fact for consideration:
According to an international study, we develop in three stages:
• FIRST (infant) STAGE: An infant will do what it wants to do, irrespective of punishment. If it wants a doll on the table, it will reach for it, no matter how much you will try to prevent it.
• SECOND (child) STAGE: A child will learn that there are repercussions for its actions. If a child steals, the child will be punished. Therefore, the child does not steal if there is a possibility of being caught. But if a child is certain that it will not be caught, it has no compunction about stealing.
• THIRD (adult) STAGE: A person will not steal (for example) even if there is no possibility of being caught. In other words, a person acts morally BY CHOICE.
From the UN research carried out internationally, it appears that only 25% of us progress to the third stage!!!
CORRECTION: Sorry I meant to say that "could be viewed..." and not "that could be view..."
Well, Shalini, we are certainly socialized. That in itself can be problematic or a blessing.
Thanks for such a thoughtful piece of writing.
I truly believe we are NOT BORN BAD..we turn bad if we allow outside influences to shape our thoughts and actions. There is an old saying, if you live by the gun you die by the gun. I know that for a fact, I have known people who have done just that and are no longer on this earth. I was not born bad, however I did have some periods in my life that evil overshadowed good and I had to fight hard to keep the evil from taking control of my life and I succeeded. One just has to look into the face of a baby or child and see the innocence that he/she was born with. It's the world that corrupts and changes if we let it. peace and hugs.
We are born with potential. We have certain limiting factors rooted in imperfection--physical, emotional, intellectual, social--but our lives, actions, and the path we take are mostly our own decision. I say mostly, because you can't ignore the nurture component, and that some are starting out ahead or behind the game because of the environment in which they're born. God being aware of our limitations, and calling to our potential is where His love comes in. He doesn't see us as despicable, he sees us as capable. He wants us to try. Your preacher should be able to show you this from the bible. Can I just say that I love your hub? Thoughtful and thought-provoking.
Good and bad...like everything else...is a matter of perception. I prefer to give a person the benefit of the doubt...till proven otherwise :)
Hi Shalini, Nice hub, but dont you think, there can be an objective view without being good and bad. There are different type of individuals, some we understand, some we don't; some contribute to our well-being, some don't. I suppose, those aligned with us in our value, and goodness and those who are not is a better and objective categorization. Is not assertiveness, aggressive, when posessed by those not aligned with us?
Hi Shalini,
I am a graphic designer by trade - you know, the trade where color and it's interactions has such a vital role? Your hub reminds me of a huge debate that arose when a professor has declared, "Color does not exist! It is an illusion created as a result of the peculiar construction of our visual sensory organs."
Good? Bad? Now? Then? Or just perception...
Please let me share my 2 cents worth.
We bring with us the good and the bad traits. They are a mixture of various degrees. The dominant traits will dominate the person's character. However, with proper guidance, the person may exhibit the good traits; while with bad influence, the person will be similarly affected.
Shalini, a thought provoking hub indeed!!. I feel we all are born good, circumstance and our upbringing makes who we are. As FP has rightly pointed its all a matter of perception, what may be good for you is bad for others and vice versa. Lovely hub. Keep up the good work.
Hi Amanda - yes - perhaps it really is too simplistic to see this in terms of black and white! It's just that those words just got me thinking!
Hello, hello, - oh I would love to believe in the sweet and angelic - when they are born, that is. I still do but just had my firm beliefs shaken a bit with these words.
Hi quicksand - yes, it does seem that we could bring some baggage along - however,is that enough cause to be bad in our natural state or is it more of a predisposition?
Hi equealla - choice plays such a great part, doesn't it? The moot point is, which do we naturally choose?
Hi words cocktail - that we are, like cats! Do we let our curiosity lead us into paths we should avoid?
Hi De Greek - that's a great 3 ages of man - yes, I agree!
Hi lorlie6 - yes, it is emerging that being socialised might just be another terms for good!
Hi saddlerider1 - very true for later in life - but how does one classify a baby who throws a tantrum for a toy?
Hi a hostagesituation - potential is a great thought - yes, maybe we have the potential to turn either way.
Hi FP - true - till one is dealing with a child bullying or a child being stubborn.
Hi saket - maybe like you say, one shouldn't really label the two because the terms can be so relative, can't they?
Hi MadKrab - So it's all just maya - so why bother about good or bad? Bears thinking about, doesn't it?
Hi Good Guy - so what we nurture is what we are - that's such a comforting thought!
Hi Jay - like I said, I'd like to think so too and it's one illusion, if that's what it is, I wouldn't like to lose!
Thanks so much everyone for reading and commenting!
Shalini asks:
Hi words cocktail - that we are, like cats! Do we let our curiosity lead us into paths we should avoid? --
Yes I do. 100% :) What path should one avoid, by the way? We choose when we walk the walk of life.
Actually, curiosity might have killed the cat but it sure opened the road to so many inventions - so who am I to say there are certain paths not to be taken? :)
Hi, this is a great question. I think it isn't a case of being good or bad, I think it is more of a case of strong and weak willed. the strong always end up trampling the weak. sometimes this is in the work place and the strong go on to become the leaders and the weaker are always the put upon. obviously the good will be good and the bad have it in them to be bad, now I have confused myself! lol great hub cheers nell
Hi Nell - truth be told, now I'm confused too. I always felt it was innocence to maybe good or bad! Thanks for coming by :)
Interesting Hub, Shalini. The thing is that in the 'natural' world children would never be unsupervised. We are social primates, who quite naturally live in large family groups and our youngsters learn from their interactions with the group. I do not think that babies are born 'bad'; we all have our own temperament and personality from birth, but I think that nurture and education is what is important (apart from the very few unfortunate people who develop sociopathic and psychotic symptoms early on)
I do know a family that the women in are really sociopaths. They seem to have no genuine feeling even for their own children. They are the types I have talked about in some hubs that just I know have never felt love and they are like being the same person to see how they treat their families. I have often wondered about this,it doesn't seem right and that it has been inherited. Was this destined? Was Hitler?
I've always thought it was the other way round. On the other hand, sometimes a person turns out bad with no obvious reasons, like bad parents for example. An interesting question! Um...I'll go with whatever you decide
Nice hub Shalini. These are the questions that make life interesting. Coming to the question, there are no easy answers!!
If you look at this in one way, you'd wonder as to how we can be born bad? For example, I don't think anyone would agree that babies/small children can be bad (born bad). So, this logic seems faulty on the face of it.
NOTE: Some experts in human genetics say that some people (more than others) have an inherent tendency to be bad when they grow up. They claim that these traits are wired in our DNA and our surroundings play a marginal part, if at all.
Another way to look at it is that we are born good, but we make the choice to be good or bad by the path we choose. Sometimes, it may not even be a choice that we consciously make, but events and our surroundings that could end up making us bad. This obviously contradicts the above theory.
All the above assumes that we all agree upon what is good or bad as a people. However, there are situations where definitions of good or bad differ across peoples/cultures/time periods, etc. "Good" and "bad" can also be a matter of convenience for certain peoples and cultures. These definitions may change over time and so there is no ONE fixed definition of what is good and what is bad.
Most of us do agree on a general definition of good or bad, so in conclusion I'd have to say I lean more towards the "being born good and then turning bad" definition than the other way round - unless scientists can prove conclusively that being bad is a trait that we are born with.
Thank you again Shalini for this thought-provoking hub :)
Hi CMHypno - very true - somehow, we've evolved beyond the pack that kept us disciplined, perhaps?
Pollyannalana - much as I'd like to believe otherwise, one wonders when one sees people who seem to be wired differently!
Hi Christoph - Well, I like to to think of babies as cherubic too - though this comment did make me think hard, again!
Hi Shil1979 - somehow I can't think of babies being born bad either - but experience does show that children can be rather difficult sometimes.
Thanks all - for enlivening the debate :)
@shil1978 & U shalini : I do not think anything like 'good' or 'bad' really exists...it is just an existence, a thing, a nothing actually!!
These are two words commonly used to define/advise/preach but one experiences and feels 'it' as one is born and then keeps growing...growing and growinnnnnnng!!! :) I love reading you, by the way...did I tell you that before?
I don't know... if we believe it, is it true? Do we make it true or does Truth exist outside our beliefs? How does believing we are fundamentally bad influence the way we live? If we are deep down bad, can we ever become deep down good or is this simply the human condition?
Hi words cocktail - that's a third option - neither good or bad :) Maybe that's the better way to think!
Hi Story - no idea - though I would like to think of us as being born good - open to debate of course!
As it is the natural order for the lioness to be tender and nurturing to her cubs while also to be a powerful destroyer of prey, so, I believe, there is no good without there also being bad. I think we're pretty much stuck with those opposities, and, as humans, we are also pretty much stuck with the ability to think about them and the responsibility to take considered action one way or another. I think we are born neither good nor bad, but only capable of going down either road.
Thanks for including the link to ahostagesituation's Hub, a beautifully written reminder that goodness is there, if you are open to seeing it.
Two sides of the same coin? You have a point there! Maybe there just can't be one without the other - and maybe nurturing is what brings one or the other to the forefront!
Wow, this is thought provoking! I think we are born innocent and definitely not bad but I am sure there are a lot of debates out there, right? thanks for making me think tonight!
Hi Ladybird - thanks for reading - yes, it still is a debate in my mind :)
I think their are both good souls and bad souls.
Maybe there are, Wendy - thanks for reading!
Dear Shalini. Very Important question related with our existence. Nature or God has given us all freedom along with some basic traits. Good as well bad. It's all up to our surrounding, our education, situations that effect our growth and make us some where mixture of Good and bad. Any way it was nice hub. Enjoyed reading.
Yes Jaspals - finally. maybe it is just a mixture.
Such a question! One that has bothered people for so long. Some say that we are a product of both genetics and environment 50/50. So how is it that you can have 2 children from the same family, all brought up together and one is good, the other is bad?
True Dolores one wonders. So much the same and yet, they can be so different! Thanks for reading!
.....well I've been here at hubpages for over 4 months or so .... and I have noticed two distinct categories:
those who write - and those who CAN write .....
- You are most definitely in the 'latter' category!!!!
I'm honoured - thank you!
Shalini,
We all are born on a blank slate, redy to be molded relative to the environment of our existance. A person that evolves to be positive and open minded or, from negative learned lessons of the fittest to survive. All of us are responsible for our environment of our future if we choose not speak up. Mahatma Ghandi is an excellant example of someone who dares to speak up reguardless of the consequences. Your perspective is valued.
Ronnie
Hi Ronnie - I would love to espouse the tabula rasa concept - however, one wonders how there very often is a black sheep even though the upbringing is the same.
Thanks for coming by!
Shalini you must love being in the eye of a storm of ideas. I always enjoy your wit and questions that I imagine come with a wink and a smile.
I believe we are born with the ability to choose fully and that means good and bad. While I think that the gentle directing of God is always available to us, I think that parents are entrusted with the frightening and yet glorious task of guidance. Like a gardener who props and guides young shoots in a certain direction so that they will grow that way when they are older, so parents are told to "train up a child in the way they should grow so that when they are old they will not depart from it."
That being said, we are born not with a clean slate, but a selfish propensity to survive and yet with a mind and heart to appreciate someone like you and want to emulate them. Do not seek to know for whom the child cries--he cries for thee. =:)
Hi Winsome - I'm sorry for replying to your post so late.
Haha - you've seen through me. There's a wicked side I try so hard to hide :D
You've wrapped that debate up so well - and I love the 'do not seek to know...' bit. The bell hath tolled! Thanks for coming by, as always.
Green Lotus Level 6 Commenter 21 months ago
I've been thinking about this subject too, that is, "are we born bad or born innocent"? I even have a similar hub in progress, so much thanks for the additional food for thought!
Rated awesome shalini!